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1/8/2017 2:00 PM
 
This is all very interesting and quite viable if one is into doing it but doesn't have much to do with the original poster's question and intent. The 308 (and most of the calibers mentioned) will kill a muley at reasonable distances, with reasonable bullets and good bullet placement. Asked and answered.
 
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1/8/2017 2:15 PM
 
snakey3 wrote:
This is all very interesting and quite viable if one is into doing it but doesn't have much to do with the original poster's question and intent. The 308 (and most of the calibers mentioned) will kill a muley at reasonable distances, with reasonable bullets and good bullet placement. Asked and answered.

 Granted and I did not segue into it very well.  I merely offered my military training as an example of WHY NOT to do something, IE, dial for wind, and also to maybe help the un-initiated understand that wind calls get progressively more difficult, and affect the trajectory more, as the distance to the target increases.  I'm in full agreement with Bushcraft that a 400yd shot on game is both ethical and doable with hunting gear without having to quit your job to learn how to do it. We just differ on a few of the particulars. Some preparation, knowledge and range time is essential, but stretching from a 250 yd capability to 400yd is much less problematic than going from 400yd to "way out past Ft. Mudge".

If you aren't willing to devote the time to it then Scot's approach is best, but I think a 50/200 zero, then just memorizing the fact that the 300yd drop will be about 6-7in is superior to any max-point-blank shenanigen even if you make 300yd your cut off.

 

 
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1/8/2017 2:38 PM
 
As the OP, I've enjoyed watching and listening to the conversation, even - especially! - when it goes off onto a tangent, especially considering these folks are significantly more experienced hunters than I. I still use the 100 yard zero, and then range, and adjust elevation, while holding for wind. Leupold has a fun reticle called the windplex, and match that with a CDS elevation dial... I'm in hog heaven! But all that's for target practice - I don't have enough opportunities to shoot at beyond 300 yards to feel confident in taking an ethical shot on a deer or elk at longer ranges. Unless I had a belt fed machine gun... man I loved the army's machine gun ranges... but I guess hunting with a machine gun would be unethical (and illegal).
 
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1/19/2017 9:39 AM
 
Take-a-knee wrote:

If you aren't willing to devote the time to it then Scot's approach is best, but I think a 50/200 zero, then just memorizing the fact that the 300yd drop will be about 6-7in is superior to any max-point-blank shenanigen even if you make 300yd your cut off.

 

 

 

This is exactly what I do. I come across very few situations (that can also be read as none) where I can't get within 300 yards of an animal. I figure if the bow hunters can get as close as they do then I can get within 300. Plus the stalk is most of the fun in my opinion.

This is coming from a guy with a 1k yard range on his place who has taken the time to learn shoot out that far. I just don't do it on game animals. To many variables and I can travel fast and light with a shooting sling but without bipods or other shenanigans and make good hits out to 300. 

 
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1/19/2017 9:24 PM
 
I have a Remington 600 in .308 that my grandpa bought new. He killed everything from deer and elk here in AZ to Dall sheep and caribou in Alaska. I killed a couple deer with it as has my dad. My sister killed a few deer and elk with it. I really don't know how many animals it has killed over the 50 odd years it has been in the family, but at no time have we been under gunned because it was a 308. I have been in the cliche campfire screaming match with friends over the .308 vs 30-06. I sat down with one of my reloading books and averaged velocities between the two with powder loads. What I came up with was the 308 gets about 94% of the velocity of an 06 with 87% of the powder load. The 06 starts to shine with bullets from 180 grains and up. We finally agreed the 06 may be a little more versatile because it handles the heavy bullets better, but the 308 makes better rifle because of the short action.
 
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1/19/2017 9:33 PM
 
"...makes a better rifle because of the short action."

That is purely subjective. "...makes a better rifle for me because of the short action."

There, fixed it for you.
 
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1/20/2017 9:24 AM
 
Ccombs wrote:
What I came up with was the 308 gets about 94% of the velocity of an 06 with 87% of the powder load. The 06 starts to shine with bullets from 180 grains and up. We finally agreed the 06 may be a little more versatile because it handles the heavy bullets better, but the 308 makes better rifle because of the short action.

 

That's the general consensus but RL-17 changes that a bit when it comes to 200+ grain bullets in .308 cases.

Usually a short action is considered "handier" since it's a bit lighter and doesn't have a tendency to smack the inattentive average shooter in the face when the bolt is cycled properly. "Better" is up for debate because remember those 200+ grain bullets? They're long and quickly run into COAL issues in short action magazines. There's no free lunch.

Also, .308 makes better use of barrels under 20 inches when compared to the .30-06. I'm sure there's a .30-06 load that gets around this but I don't know what it is.

 
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1/21/2017 2:40 PM
 
El Mac, that's fair enough. I prefer short handy rifles but that's personal.

veriest1, that wasn't a super scientific study. It was just to prove a point to a couple guys who looked down their noses at the 308 because they grew up shooting '06s. I haven't had much need to shoot a 200 gr bullet so magazine length hasn't been an issue. I havent used RL-17 but I'm interested in looking into it.
 
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1/21/2017 3:05 PM
 
I like short/handy rifles too. Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against a short action. I just don't believe that it is necessarily "better".
 
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3/30/2017 8:55 AM
 
Interesting thread, and responses.

My daughter (13 at the time) killed this cow with a single shot, at a lasered 375 yards, with her 20" .308, in 2015.

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/2015%20ELK/P1010362_zpskmikeng7.jpg.html]
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Here she is pointing to the entrance wound, exactly where I told her to place the bullet:

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/2015%20ELK/P1010359_zpsbqzsdlud.jpg.html]
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Here, I am showing the exit wound on the offside shoulder, again, exactly where I told her to line the shot up.

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/2015%20ELK/P1010365_zpsnxlqprjm.jpg.html]
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3/30/2017 8:59 AM
 
Here is my daughter's 2016 elk, shot this last December. It fell to another single well placed round from her 20" .308. This was a rather close range shot, as I recall, maybe 120-140 yards. I did not laser the shot, it was too close for her to need to dial/hold for correction.

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/2016%20deer%20elk/IMG_2068_zps9f88tde8.jpg.html]
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Again a complete pass through with the projectile, though no pics were taken.

 
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3/30/2017 9:10 AM
 
Here is her 2016 mule deer, (shown with her grandpa) shot at about 200 yards, with a single .308 round.

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/2016%20deer%20elk/IMG_1801_zpsas6vkalq.jpg.html]
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And here is another Mule Deer take by her. This one was a lasered 198 yards, and fell to a single bullet from a 6mm Remington custom T3.

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/7434E63F-5161-41F8-A6D8-A203B255098E_zpsqvrzjuvc.jpg.html]
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I have never, ever seen a deer bang/flop as hard as the one hit he nailed with the 6mm Remington, using an 85 grain BTHP Game KIng at 3430FPS MV.

 
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3/30/2017 9:11 AM
 
If I recall right this guy was between 350-400 yards.

I used my 20" .308.

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/2725DD8B-D19F-4AA5-B2ED-C58E5C380E0A_zpsaatywjd7.jpg.html]
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3/30/2017 9:12 AM
 
This tiny little guy fell to a single .308 round, again at around 375 yards.

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/2013OhioGulch375Yards_zps1fb3e477.jpg.html]
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3/30/2017 9:14 AM
 
These 2 cow elk, each fell to a single well placed .308 bullet, right at the 400 yard mark.

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Elk%20hunts/SAKO%20ELK_zpspnfeywt8.jpg.html]
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[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Elk%20hunts/SAKO%20ELK_zpspnfeywt8.jpg.html]
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3/30/2017 9:17 AM
 
Another Muley, right at the 400 yard mark.

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/sntzd400ydLVLKmuley.jpg.html]
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3/30/2017 9:38 AM
 
These 2 Muley Bucks each fell to a single well placed .308 projectile,at just barely under 600 yards.

[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/2005Deer598yds308Tikka.jpg.html]
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I freely admit that I don't know/follow paper formulas for killing effectiveness, kinetic energy, knock-out formulas, etc. That said, I have put a fair number of elk and mule deer in the freezer over the decades (many with the lowly .308). Literally dozens of Mule Deer have succumbed to a single shot from various .308s, and it has taught me that a .308 is plenty, if you can shoot. It is also lethal at ranges that far exceed what many think.

 
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3/30/2017 9:48 AM
 
This is really not even close to representative of total numbers or even "best racks" or other such stuff. I honestly never even displayed horns until my wife inquired about it. She actually grabbed the ones not used as chew toys fro dogs and squirrels, and started displaying some. I honestly have never even learned how to "score" antlers, Some are just more interesting looking than others.


[URL=http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Elk%20hunts/FullSizeRender%202_zpsbdmziyfs.jpg.html]
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Some antlers were kept because of memorable hunts. Many have been cut down for drawer pulls, lamp cord pulls, given to friends for craft projects, etc.


The punchline is that most (not all) of the horns shown, were taken with a .308. If I was limited to one single general purpose (to include big game) rifle, the .308 would be my first choice, hands down.



 
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3/30/2017 4:11 PM
 
Well, I think Mackay-Sagebrush clearly showed that the 308 was inadequate for western muleys.

But seriously, great pics and awesome results, MS. That Tikka your daughter used is a beautiful rifle (the one in those first two pics); I didn't realize the barrel was thick enough to thread. I had to look up 6mm Rem, at first I thought it was just a fancy name for .243... if you don't mind, what loads are y'all using in 308? Hand loads, factory?

Again, thanks for sharing! Really cool stuff.

- J
 
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3/30/2017 9:01 PM
 
For the last little while I have been running a 155 Scenar pushed by a very full case of Varget.

Both of my daughter's elk have been killed with the Scenars, as well as last years mule deer.

For a number of years though I used a 165 grain hollow point boat tail game king, pushed by Varget.

The 165 grain HPBTGK was superbly accurate, but due to its pumpkin like profile and terrible BC, it really got blown around by the wind at mid ranges (past 500 or so), so I began to search for a better general purpose load, and found the 155 Scenar load.

And going against convention, a good many mule deer and even a couple elk have fallen to 175 grain SMKs. For a good number of years I used the 175 grain SMK load for anything and everything in my .308s.

These days, 90% of my 308 shooting is with the Scenar load, and I buy them by the 1K round bulk boxes, to make it a bit more affordable.

That said, I still have a pretty fair supply of 175 grain SMKs I need to burn through.

 
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