Hill People Gear Forums
HomeHomeDiscussionsDiscussionsFirearms and Sk...Firearms and Sk...Larry vickers handgun operator class Larry vickers handgun operator class
Previous
 
Next
New Post
5/29/2017 7:58 PM
 
I found recently that Larry Vickers is giving the 2 day handgun operator class very close to me so I signed up . I was wondering since this is my first go at formal type training , what are some good electronic hearing ear muffs? I have actually never used anything other then regular muffs. Also , anyone have experience with magtech ball ammo ? I found some bulk priced pretty reasonable and I thought I might go ahead and pick some up for the class . Other than that , anything else I should be aware of before taking the class ?
 
New Post
5/29/2017 8:03 PM
 
What's your budget for the ear pro?
 
New Post
5/29/2017 8:16 PM
 
Electronic Ear Pro is highly recommended. Howard Leigh are your best bang for your buck. I tried Peltors and quickly sweated them into malfunctions. My Howards continue to soldier on.

I have shot a ton of magtech, and it is one of my gotos for "bargin" ammo.

Take as many spare mags as you can. It is very nice to be able to just grab loaded mags and walk back to the line to hear the conversations. I personally stuff mags every chance I get and always bring a couple extra to the line.

Expect a solid focus on the basics, and don't expect lots of fancy stuff.

Take notes, so in the days/weeks after as you are ruminating you can refer back.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
 
New Post
5/29/2017 8:18 PM
 
Oh yeah go to learn not to prove yourself. The only one on the line you need to "beat" is yourself by improving throughout the day. Leave the rgo at home. If you can't spot that guy in tye class you are that guy.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
 
New Post
5/29/2017 9:26 PM
 
Scot's words are solid.

If you can afford the best, get TCI ear pro. Especially if you plan on attending classes regularly or if you do any instruction. And if you dig comfort, go with their gel seals.
 
New Post
5/30/2017 11:00 AM
 
Thanks for the advice El Mac . I've started my search today. I didn't realize just how much some of them are .
 
New Post
5/30/2017 11:09 AM
 
scothill wrote:
Oh yeah go to learn not to prove yourself. The only one on the line you need to "beat" is yourself by improving throughout the day. Leave the rgo at home. If you can't spot that guy in tye class you are that guy.


Thanks Scot . I won't go with that kind of attitude. I'm paying so I can learn and no other reason . I hear what your saying about " that guy " , I won't be him . I really had been looking for quite awhile for him to get close to me simply because of all the feedback I've read on here and other places . I really like the fact that it's not all a bunch of hype and all made out to be like a person will be a super star tier 1 operator . Simple instructions on being a better shot is all I want . I'm a 50 yo big truck technician , I have no delusions of being anything different other than a better pistol operator . I wonder though how addicting this class will be ..... may be awhile before he comes back around for the #2 class .
 
New Post
5/31/2017 8:11 AM
 
take a set of in the ear ear plugs, trust me your head will start to feel fatigued if you are not used to wearing a headset for a full day.

bring tape and bandaids for your fingers and hands, you can easily run thru a couple thousand rounds and a lot more over a two day class.

bring a towel to wipe and dry your hands and bring a magazine cleaning kit (brush and rag) if you are going to be dropping mags in the dirt/maybe mud. know how to disassemble and clean your mags.

 
New Post
5/31/2017 9:51 AM
 
A couple of additional comments from someone who has been teaching & instructing for 35 years:

- Take lots of magazines - 6 or 8 isn't too many.
- Keep them topped off at every opportunity.
- Get a belt mounted drop pouch that will hold at least 150 rds of loose ammo .... it's much better than loading from your pockets and/or constantly walking off-line.
- Ask relevant questions at relevant times. Most teachers worth their salt will get around to telling you everything that's important - but it will come in a certain order.
- Knee and elbow pads ... and a hat and some rain gear and sunscreen.
- Stay hydrated and don't over eat at lunch ..... a light lunch and snacks will serve you well.
- Have back-ups of EVERYTHING.
- Show up with a RELIABLE service size pistol and good support gear (holster, belt, mag pouches, flashlight, eyes, ears, etc) that's suitable for square range training. A compact pistol with an IWB holster will not serve you well. If in doubt, get a stiff Wilderness Belt and a good OWB kydex holster & mag carrier.


Hope some of that helps.
 
New Post
6/1/2017 12:43 PM
 
scothill wrote:
Electronic Ear Pro is highly recommended. Howard Leigh are your best bang for your buck. I tried Peltors and quickly sweated them into malfunctions. My Howards continue to soldier on.
 
 
I've seen people get years out of those cheap gray Peltors.  I wore a pair in Saudi for two months.  I sweated a bit, they still work today.  Having said that, you'll see more folks using the Howard Leights than any other E-pro.  Been meaning to get a pair but the Peltors still work.  I have a much more expensive pair of Peltors (Tactial Pros) that still work, but have a short that kills the batteries in about 4hr.
 
I don't know if LAV will cover prone shooting but a mat will be appreciated if he does.  The dump pouch thing is a must.  Some guys have just used cloth nail bags, like from a builder's supply, as dump pouches.  Years ago Randy Cain used to reccomend that for his shotgun class.

 

 
New Post
6/6/2017 10:47 AM
 
Thanks for the advice everyone . I hadn't thought about a dump pouch for sure. I do have 6 mags now . I'll probably pick up more before hand . As far as ear pro , I ordered the Howard Leight impact sport pro model , Good price with free shipping on amazon . I did try a pair of walkers game ear , I think they were called razors maybe , the sound didn't seem quite right to me . The Howards are much better . The class isn't till October so I have some time to check out more stuff and get all my gear in order .
Does anyone practice using a shot timer ? I was thinking it would be good to introduce a little stress in the mix .
 
New Post
6/6/2017 11:36 AM
 
Electronic Timers are a means to an end, but FAR TOO MANY folks that use them these days view them as the end itself. Learn to shoot accurately first. If you can clean a Dot Torture Drill (http://waffenkultur.com/download/dottorture.pdf) at 5 or 7 yards, then start working on your speed. If not, get the fundamentals down pat first.

There's a dynamic at work in the training realm that few people truly appreciate; Every time you do something right you get a little better. Every time you do it wrong, you get a little worse. Most people really aren't very consistent so they usually just plateau or get worse out of frustration.

Personally, I'd suggest you save your enthusiasm for "getting better" for the upcoming class and just work on things you know you can do correctly now. Your training AFTER the Vickers class should produce a better result because you'll know how and what to work on.

 
New Post
6/6/2017 11:49 AM
 
41magfan wrote:

Personally, I'd suggest you save your enthusiasm for "getting better" for the upcoming class and just work on things you know you can do correctly now. Your training AFTER the Vickers class should produce a better result because you'll know how and what to work on.
 

... this exactly. LAV uses a shot timer in some very specific ways. Using one after the fact in those ways will be helpful. Using one before might be damaging. Training scars are a real thing. There are one or two (I don't remember which ones) that Larry has never been able to untrain a shooter on once ingrained.


We are fortunate in this matter that your conduct will be your marker and, thus, your reputation. The conduct of others on this forum has been, and will continue to be, their marker, and thus, their reputation. In the west, a person invests in one's reputation carefully. - 112Papa
 
New Post
6/7/2017 1:25 PM
 
evanhill wrote:
41magfan wrote:

Personally, I'd suggest you save your enthusiasm for "getting better" for the upcoming class and just work on things you know you can do correctly now. Your training AFTER the Vickers class should produce a better result because you'll know how and what to work on.

... this exactly. LAV uses a shot timer in some very specific ways. Using one after the fact in those ways will be helpful. Using one before might be damaging. Training scars are a real thing. There are one or two (I don't remember which ones) that Larry has never been able to untrain a shooter on once ingrained.


Thats exactly what I plan to do . I was just curious about the shot timer thing . I just don't have any personal experience with them .
 
New Post
6/8/2017 9:20 AM
 
peppergat,

If you want to do something (in the interim) that will make your upcoming training class as beneficial as possible, work of your manipulation skills; drawing, reloading, dry-firing, etc. The goal is economy of effort and motion.

Some of the better instructional Youtube videos by folks like Rob Leatham, Bob Vogel, Jerry Miculek and Bill Rogers will present some principles of how to do it properly. 5 to 10 minutes a day of dry practice will make a huge difference when it comes time to do live-fire. Work on doing it RIGHT .... don't worry so much about doing it FAST. That will come later.
 
New Post
6/8/2017 12:43 PM
 
41magfan wrote:
peppergat,

If you want to do something (in the interim) that will make your upcoming training class as beneficial as possible, work of your manipulation skills; drawing, reloading, dry-firing, etc. The goal is economy of effort and motion.

Some of the better instructional Youtube videos by folks like Rob Leatham, Bob Vogel, Jerry Miculek and Bill Rogers will present some principles of how to do it properly. 5 to 10 minutes a day of dry practice will make a huge difference when it comes time to do live-fire. Work on doing it RIGHT .... don't worry so much about doing it FAST. That will come later.



Indeed . I've been doing dry fire for awhile . I do it a few times a week and it definitely does make a difference . I really do appreciate the advice.
 
New Post
6/9/2017 8:55 PM
 
41magfan wrote:
peppergat,

If you want to do something (in the interim) that will make your upcoming training class as beneficial as possible, work of your manipulation skills; drawing, reloading, dry-firing, etc. The goal is economy of effort and motion.
Work on doing it RIGHT .... don't worry so much about doing it FAST. That will come later.
 
I don't disagree with anything you wrote but I'm going to play devils' advocate here and say that, once you do have the basics down, not pushing the speed envelope can become a training scar itself.  I know of a career SF guy who'd been through numerous SFAUC courses and was a ranked Bullseye shooter who got his feelings hurt on a Rogers Range.  Bill's speed standards are the same on day one as day five.  He says the only way to learn to drive fast is to drive fast.  Granted, he has instructors there on the line fixing/coaching glaring errors.
 
Rob Latham has an excellent video on youtube about how to push the speed envelope using a timer and a full-sized steel torso target.
 
Latham knew Cooper and talks about how using Cooper's "surprise-break" can hamstring a pistol shooter trying to get faster.  Jeff Cooper was, first and foremost, a rifleman.  He shot everything, to include a pistol and a shotgun, like a rifle.

 

 
New Post
6/10/2017 7:33 AM
 
I don't want to derail this thread much farther, but let me simply say this:

- I can teach someone to shoot faster A LOT easier and quicker than I can teach them to shoot accurately.
- Most Gunsite stuff (Surprise Break being just one example) is too often propagated by people who have never trained there, so their context for teaching and discussing it is fairly limited.
- I've only been to Rogers once (Intermediate/Advanced - 1998), and IMO that's NOT the place to go learn the fundamentals.

Lastly, if you want to learn to shoot well - you would probably benefit from taking a class from Kippi Leatham, first.

 
New Post
7/2/2017 5:31 PM
 
Lots of good advice here. I've trained with Larry several times. He's very much focused on accuracy fundamentals first. You'll hear a lot about trigger control, see a lot of B-8 target centers and go through a lot of drills that literally focus on accuracy. As was said earlier, you have to learn to shoot accurately, correctly, before you work on speed. To that end, you'll finish the first day not having fired as many rounds as you might have expected. And probably the second day. But Larry will leave you tired, thoughtful about what he's said, what you've done during the course, and what you need to do to improve.
 
Previous
 
Next
HomeHomeDiscussionsDiscussionsFirearms and Sk...Firearms and Sk...Larry vickers handgun operator class Larry vickers handgun operator class