Hill People Gear Forums
HomeHomeDiscussionsDiscussionsFirearms and Sk...Firearms and Sk...Bear PistolsBear Pistols
Previous
 
Next
New Post
11/14/2017 9:21 AM
 

Made a decision after careful thought and....well....Merry Christmas / 27th Wedding Anniversary for me! Mrs. Santa Claus / HouseCon-6 / Dear Wife (SF Special Breed Of Woman) has cleared me hot to drop the hammer on a Redhawk .44 Mag 4.2"! I reckon I got me a good woman....she didn't even flinch!  Just sealed the deal on GunBroker.com.


Hill People Gear Coureurs des Bois (Brand Ambassador). Victoria faveat paratam. De Oppresso Liber.
 
New Post
11/15/2017 12:37 PM
 

Congrats!

I bought that revolver in .45 Colt a while back.  Second trip to the range the rear sight blade cracked necessitating replacement.  After a bit of research, I installed the Bowen Rough Country rear sight.  It's quite the improvement.

All the best with your new Ruger.

 
New Post
11/15/2017 2:19 PM
 

Thanks!  Good to know!  I will keep an eye on the rear sight.

 


Hill People Gear Coureurs des Bois (Brand Ambassador). Victoria faveat paratam. De Oppresso Liber.
 
New Post
1/27/2018 10:33 AM
 
I have a .454 that I bought for deep woods carry but I usually carry a 10mm.
 
New Post
9/13/2018 8:22 AM
 
An interesting bear pistol story ....
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/09/dean-weingarten/a-new-mexico-bear-attack-finally-stopped-by-a-glock-10mm-pistol/
 
New Post
9/15/2018 2:00 PM
 
I saw that article and it’s interesting. The poor guy wasn’t expecting a run in with an animal so he had was loaded for a social defense situation.
 
New Post
9/16/2018 5:46 PM
 
41magfan wrote:
An interesting bear pistol story ....
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/09/dean-weingarten/a-new-mexico-bear-attack-finally-stopped-by-a-glock-10mm-pistol/
 
Great story.  The guy is a stud in my book.
 
Many of the comments on the article criticized him for using Hornady 175gr. Critical Duty 10mm.  Lucky Gunner Ammo Labs says this load gives 20 inches of penetration on gel and expands to .56”.
 
Understand bear is not gel and I carry Corbon 200gr FMJ/hardcast in bear country.   Still not sure the Critical Duty ballistics were that bad.
 
As an aside, I couldn’t get 220gr. hard cast to feed reliably in my Glock 20.

 

 
New Post
9/16/2018 6:29 PM
 
As is most often the case, the outcome of this incident had very little to do with the gun or the ammunition being used.
 
New Post
9/16/2018 7:27 PM
 
It actually has a lot to do with the ammo. In fact, it’s probably a close second to shot placement. Even with proper shot placement hollow points just don’t do as good a job at breaking bones and penetrating. None of the “experts” that I know of recommend hollowpoints for bear defense. John Linebaugh, Tim Sundles, Ashley Emerson all emphasize the importance of using a tough, deep penetrating solid.
 
New Post
9/16/2018 7:49 PM
 
chriscscs wrote:
It actually has a lot to do with the ammo. In fact, it’s probably a close second to shot placement. Even with proper shot placement hollow points just don’t do as good a job at breaking bones and penetrating. None of the “experts” that I know of recommend hollowpoints for bear defense. John Linebaugh, Tim Sundles, Ashley Emerson all emphasize the importance of using a tough, deep penetrating solid.



I'm operating under the assumption that the context of this thread is the DEFENSIVE use of a handgun against bears. In those circumstances, just about any medium to large caliber service handgun cartridge (9mm, .357, .40, .45, 10mm, .41/.44, et al) will bring about a cessation of the attack, IF the operator can achieve reasonable hits.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5RJqfBQAX

If I knew I was going to use a handgun to shoot a large predator "on purpose", then yes I'd choose the most effective handgun and load available, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.
 
New Post
9/16/2018 8:19 PM
 
41mag, I’m with you on that!
 
New Post
9/22/2018 4:25 PM
 
Another recent bear encounter involving a Glock 20.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/299589237107193/permalink/685978508468262/
 
New Post
9/22/2018 7:17 PM
 
41magfan wrote:
 
....If I knew I was going to use a handgun to shoot a large predator "on purpose", then yes I'd choose the most effective handgun and load available, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Bears repeating (pun intended). 

The more thought I put into the subject, the more I think there are a lot of parallels with how the vast majority of people prepare for self-defense against human predators. The only difference may be caliber choice.

Many people seem to cling to this idea, and train (if they train), as though they need to defend against human attackers that are somewhere between 7 and 20 yards away (at least based on what I typically see at the range...). The reality is that for civilian scenarios, this is not born out by the facts. Most violent attacks happen very fast and at very close range.

The same is true with bears, although we tend to harbor a lot of the same myths in regards to how we prepare for such encounters. The notion of having lots of time to draw your long-barreled, big bore gun, acquire the target and get off a few highly accurate shots on a bear that is closing in on you from a reasonable distance is largely fantasy, not at all supported by the majority of documented bear attacks on humans. 

Train for extremely close encounters on very fast moving targets where you may only have seconds to react, or you are probably fooling yourself and largely just getting false comfort from that sidearm on your hip. 

With the above in mind, when I think of "effective" as 41mgfan states above, I don't just think about the biggest caliber I can get my hands on - I think about caliber in addition to what I can draw and shoot quickly and accurately in the most common, realistic scenario (high-stress, fast moving target at close range), rather than what I may be able to hit a static plate with at the range at 20 yards from a comfortable stance with lots of time to take the shot. Whether we are talking about humans or bears, train for reality supported by the facts, not the ideal scenario you may have imagined.

 
New Post
9/23/2018 7:17 PM
 
I vote we develop a test/standard/drill etc to pressure test our ideas.

The HPG BGT (Bear Gun Test):

Target is a 3x5 card 5' off the ground for 9mm/357. 4x6 card for 41mag or larger.

Course of Fire:
1. Shot standing while backing up, starting at 7yd. Freestyle
2. Laying on your back (pulling guard) at 1yd. Freestyle
3. Retention / contact distance. SHO

Unlimited number of shots. You just need to hit the 3x5/4x6 card once in 3 seconds to pass.

Ammo needs to meet or exceed 18" of penetration per DocGKR type standards.
Must be shot wearing hip waders or 25lb backpack.

Talk is cheap...lets compare fur checks.
 
New Post
9/24/2018 8:33 AM
 
I have thought about that in the past. I like your shooting drill idea but it needs a couple of components: 1) Use burpees, suicides, squat jumps and push ups to elevate the heart rate and simulate the effects and an adrenaline dump that would occur in such an encounter. 2) there needs to be a one handed component to the drills. 3) periodically the drills should be performed on eneven terrain.
 
New Post
9/24/2018 10:30 AM
 
The retention shooting is SHO (strong hand only) but could easily add SHO and or WHO to the course of fire.
I had thought about some physical activity to get the HR up. Add a pair of Thai pads for 2 minutes prior.
Scatter a half cord of split wood on the range. Anyone who passes the drill gets to keep the wood.

Talk is cheap...lets compare fur checks.
 
New Post
9/24/2018 10:42 AM
 
Folks who are going to train are already training, and the rest are not. We posted a challenge like this on another forum, and suddenly the loudest talkers were quiet. Those who actually shot it were all regular shooters, and none of them were running super heavy loads because they had learned that you couldn't shoot quickly and accurately with heavy recoil. Any kind of modern drill shot back to back with a BEAR gun and their regular carry is going to quickly convince folks they need to re think things. I know because I have done just that on more then one occasion, and I am talking about died in the wool .44 revolver fanatics. Those that don't switch are to wrapped up in the ID of carrying a romping stomping Bear revolver, and it is more about that then actual quick and accurate hits.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
 
New Post
9/24/2018 11:17 AM
 
Thai pads are for sissies! Bare shin contact on an oak tree is much better followed by skip knees to the face to simulate partial mauling. Lol! Seriously though, thanks for letting me know what SHO and WHO mean, I didn’t know.
 
New Post
9/24/2018 11:51 AM
 

I like that idea, Strow. When I get a chance, I'm going to play around with it. As Scot suggests, I have a feeling I'll do a lot better on those drills running a heavy load through my .40 than with a .44 mag, but I plan to try it with both for comparison.

This just happened last week over the hill from me. Lots of details still to be determined, but worth a read:

https://buckrail.com/death-of-mark-uptain-by-grizzly-what-we-now-know/

and a little more follow-up detail here: 

https://buckrail.com/injured-hunting-client-says-guide-saved-his-life-services-for-uptain-wednesday/

 
New Post
9/24/2018 12:09 PM
 
I've been doing defensive firearms training for about 36 years now and I can tell you that pretty much ANY range exercise or drill that involves a static target is largely ballistic self-gratification. In the past I've used automated "running man" target systems set-up to advance on the shooter, but none of them are fast enough to remotely resemble a wild animal (or a human being for that matter). My attempts at making things realistic is better than nothing I suppose, but it's sorely lacking .... even though it does offer some challenge over a static target.

I've given up on motorized systems for the time-being (they're just too slow) and have been working on (conceptually) a short-range (20 yards to contact distance) concept that works solely on spring power. My goal is to devise something that will close on the shooter at a minimum speed of 25-30 fps in order to be remotely realistic.

I'll likely use this target as a template until something else can be devised. (23" x 35")


 
Previous
 
Next
HomeHomeDiscussionsDiscussionsFirearms and Sk...Firearms and Sk...Bear PistolsBear Pistols