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12/30/2015 8:40 PM
 

As usual I am probably a little late to the enlightenment party…but.  What niche or use can anyone see in the pistol caliber carbines?   An SBR AR in 9mm, AR 9mm pistol with brace, Sig MPX pistol with brace, CZ Scorpion EVO with brace, or any others I may be missing.

Select fire would be out of the question but adding a brace to a pistol or doing the SBR paperwork wouldn’t be much of a chore.  I actually have a HTG 9mm can collecting dust that could find a host.

I can’t think of much I can’t get done with a 16” AR, 20” 300WM precision bolt gun, G19, suppressed 22LR, and Rem870.  But I’m always open to new ideas.

Where could you see a light handy pistol caliber carbine fitting into your arsenal?  What need would it address if any? What am I missing?  There is obviously a market.

It would be interesting to run some standard drills comparing the PCC’s, iron sighted pistol, RDS pistol, iron sighted rifle, RDS rifle, and magnified optic rifle and see how things stack up. 

To butcher the Zen axiom:  “Before enlightenment scrounge ammo, load mags.  After enlightenment…scrounge ammo, load mags. (Sorry Evan)


Talk is cheap...lets compare fur checks.
 
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12/30/2015 9:16 PM
 
I'm really trying to justify a 9mm AR for cheap suppressed training and fun. I think it would fill the void between the M&P-22 and the AR in 5.56. I'm sort of in the dark also on who makes a good one, which mags, etc. The Scorpion is getting the nod from a few guys around here who are going to SBR them but I'd like to keep an AR platform.

I keep leaning towards a .300BO instead. Ammo is more expensive but just as quiet with a heavier weight bullet and the ability to shoot a super that is whitetail capable.
 
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12/30/2015 9:56 PM
 
Outside of a "magnum" type pistol caliber (.357, .44 mag or .45 Colt) carbine lever gun, I see little to no utility in a typical semi-auto pistol caliber "carbine".

They do nothing better than a rifle type carbine. I've had access to some pretty good ones, even ones with the full auto feature.

So it goes like this:

A pistol is ok, a pistol caliber 'carbine' is good, but a true rifle caliber carbine beats them all - hands down. I can not envision any scenario (outside of just messing around at the range) where I would bypass a rifle carbine for a pistol carbine. If you want a toy to play with, I understand. If you want a tool to do a real job - well, I've said my piece.
 
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12/31/2015 6:35 AM
 
I know my thoughts may not be mainstream on this subject, but I just don't think the pistol caliber carbine concept has been properly addressed with the right gun.

If Glock would make a sub-5 pound (mostly polymer) carbine in 9mm, .40, 10mm & .45, design it with an integral sight rail for a RDS, put ghost ring sights on it as a standard accessory, they couldn't make them fast enough. With extended magazine options developed for every caliber, I'd want at least two .... maybe three.
 
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12/31/2015 9:29 AM
 
Purely because I am a guy who grew up watching action movies in the 90s, I would like an MP5. That being said after messing with 357 and 44 Leverguns, if I am going to carry a rifle sized package I want a rifle caliber. That goes for the AR style or similar SBRs or Pistols too.

That being said I have long had an interest in something more than a pistol and less than a rifle. Something along the lines of the HK MP5k or Mini (not micro) Uzi, or TP9 (or whatever they are calling it now), which is smaller than a rifle size or even SBR size, but still has the ability to have a stock and optic. My personal caliber choice would be for 45, especially if suppressing it, for the extra thump. An inbetweener if you will. I don't know if it is something that I would end up using regularly, but having done enough shooting I know just how much better I am with a rifle than pistol, and each incremental step that way makes a difference in accuracy in my opinion. Of course it would have to be between in weight too, and that is probably were the biggest issue comes in. For the record I have never shot the Mini Uzi or TP9 just handled them.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
 
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12/31/2015 9:37 AM
 
The MP5k is a fun gun, no doubt. And of all the subguns I've shot and used, it is my favorite. I only wish it were in 10mm.

The 9mm crap is a joke. There are so many better calibers out there. And if you are going to tote a 5lb hammer, it ought to hit like one. Why manufacturers wan to center around that round is beyond me (outside of the police and military customers that insist on it).
 
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12/31/2015 4:21 PM
 

The MP5K is cool for sure but I prefer the original "K", the Swede.  You can drive nails with that thing.  I always lusted for the S&W 76 in 45 that was a US version of the Swede.  It was available select-fire unlike the original Swede.  A 9mm sub with hot GI ammo is not a thing to sneer at, and with 147gr XTP's would be quite potent, and supressable.  WAY outta my price range now.

  I just sold my 44 Marlin Trapper.  I may get a Rossi 92 Stainless in 357.  An iron-sighted light/handy lever makes a lot of sense as a utility gun, IMO.  It is a 100yd deer rifle with 180gr XTP's and a kid's plinker with 38 specials.  A pistol caliber lever carry twice the ammo a 30/30 can.

A 9mm AR makes sense if you can mass produce cheap 9mm yourself.  You can shoot steel up close safely with it.  Most of the pistol AR lowers have issues, often mag related.  Palmetto State just released a lower that takes Glock mags.  For non-range use, a Sig-brace 300 Blackout makes more sense for a shorty.  More reliable than a short 5.56.

 
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12/31/2015 7:03 PM
 
Thank you all for your input! That about sums up what I had thought as well.

A set-up under 5lb loaded, under 18” suppressed, hearing safe and hits hard out to ~100yd would be cool. Didn’t Col. Cooper write about his “Thumper” idea similar to this?

Until something real paradigm shifting comes along I guess I will just rock what I got.

Neat ideas though…

Talk is cheap...lets compare fur checks.
 
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12/31/2015 8:37 PM
 
strow wrote:

A set-up under 5lb loaded, under 18” suppressed, hearing safe and hits hard out to ~100yd would be cool. Didn’t Col. Cooper write about his “Thumper” idea similar to this?


 Don't remember "Thumper" but he called a 44 Trapper the "Brooklyn Special".

 
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1/1/2016 12:24 PM
 
I always thought they'd be a fun range toy--cheaper to shoot (9mm) than .223, but to me, it's just about having a fun toy.

PSA has just come out with a 9mm AR lower that accepts Glock magazines--but you have to use their "hybrid" uppers. I suppose there's some utility in having one that accepts the same magazines as your pistol, but the carbine isn't creating a giant increase in muzzle velocity.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-glock-9mm-complete-classic-lower.html

 
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1/2/2016 5:36 PM
 
IMO, the place where a true pistol-caliber [read: not magnum pistol] carbine shines is with a pistol-length barrel, suppressor, and tax stamp if applicable. The ammo is far cheaper than Blackout, you can get a lighter, shorter gun, and you get much less blast without the suppressor than with the Blackout guns. What you give up is the parts standardization, the added performance and range of the Blackout supersonic loads, and generally there's an increased cost to go with it.

For a true "thumper" you'd be looking for something in the .450 Shrubhamster, .45 Raptor, or .458 SOCOM family running the godawful heavy subsonics through a Bowers .50 can. Essentially what you end up with is a semi-auto rifle that throws twelve-gauge slugs, but quietly.

Either way, the nines are a load of fun, but OTOH you can bridge some of the gaps if you're running an integrally suppressed upper in a Blackout chambering and end up with a shorter, quieter gun overall with one less tax stamp.
 
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1/4/2016 8:20 AM
 
I think that the Thumper was the big bore scout rifle, but there was another he talked about at one point, basically a 44mag semi if memory serves.

If you are wanting compact, harder hitting (hard to define), and semi, to me that means something in 7.62x39, 300blk, or 6.8 whether it be a pistol or SBR. Each of those bring more thump to the table than the 5.56 or pistol calibers. I don't have any experience with the 300blk, but have hear it is quiet suppressed using supersonic rounds and almost Hollywood quiet with sub-sonics. I have to admit to being very intrigued, but am held up by the boutique nature of the caliber. My feeling is that it will have better longevity than the 6.8 as it has been more widely adopted by the shooting public, but am still leery. I know of some guides in Wyoming who love it for everything out to 200 in a 16". I personally lean towards the x39 for cost and ammunition availability, and hope to see something interesting stuff at shot. Heck the MCX in x39 actually hitting the market would be very interesting.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
 
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1/4/2016 8:33 AM
 
I just recently spent some time with the MCX in .300 Blk. Both sub and super sonic... Very impressive. The suppressed (using the SIG can) subsonic is ridiculously quiet and has similar ballistics (at least bullet weight and velocity) to a .45acp. Haven't spent any time in the charts but I'm guessing due to the BC, a significantly better down range performance subsonic than can be had with the .45acp.

If I had the slash, I would have bought it on the spot. And I'm not at all into boutique rounds AT ALL.

And I'm not super big into piston driven ARs as the DIs have never failed me over thousands and thousands of rounds. To me, an unnecessary mod adding extra weight for no discernable reason. (Well, I realize some folk don't like to get their pretty fingers dirty when cleaning their rifles, so a nod to those folk.) But the MCX is a unique and well thought out design that deserves its own place in the gun safe.

MCX = everything the AR and AK can do, but arguably better.

However, would I run out and sell my ARs/AKs? Uh, no.
 
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1/6/2016 8:10 PM
 
http://www.tnwfirearms.com/product-p/...

Don't have any experience with them, but they look interesting. I do have a 16" .44 mag lever action that I use a lot in tight quarters when tracking wounded deer (I run a tracking dog service), or going into yaupon thickets after hogs. It's become a favorite.
 
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1/11/2016 8:26 AM
 
El Mac wrote:
I just recently spent some time with the MCX in .300 Blk. Both sub and super sonic... Very impressive. The suppressed (using the SIG can) subsonic is ridiculously quiet and has similar ballistics (at least bullet weight and velocity) to a .45acp. Haven't spent any time in the charts but I'm guessing due to the BC, a significantly better down range performance subsonic than can be had with the .45acp.

If I had the slash, I would have bought it on the spot. And I'm not at all into boutique rounds AT ALL.

And I'm not super big into piston driven ARs as the DIs have never failed me over thousands and thousands of rounds. To me, an unnecessary mod adding extra weight for no discernable reason. (Well, I realize some folk don't like to get their pretty fingers dirty when cleaning their rifles, so a nod to those folk.) But the MCX is a unique and well thought out design that deserves its own place in the gun safe.

MCX = everything the AR and AK can do, but arguably better.

However, would I run out and sell my ARs/AKs? Uh, no.

 

Nice to see someone here mention the MCX, I've been very interested in those since first hearing about them.  Haven't had my hands on one yet, but judging by your comments, I better keep my hands off if I wanna keep my monies.

Strow - no interest in 10mm?  One of the few pistol cal carbines I have any interest in is the mechtech glock upper in 10mm.  If you haven't heard of them, here's their site: http://www.mechtechsys.com - I've spent some time on the phone with them and they've always been super helpful.  And, like HPG, they maintain a classifieds section in their site's forum, which can be super helpful.  So many co's are in it to just sell new product that very few offer that sort of service right on their home page, and my respect grows almost instantly for any co I see supporting used gear swapping etc.

I did a site:hillpeoplegear.com mechtech search and the only result I saw come up was my post on the truck gun thread, so I'm guessing mechtech is largely unknown here?  Or maybe folks just aren't into them?  I will tell you from personal experience that they are a LOT more stout than comparable options like keltec sub2k.  And really, like others have already said, a 9mm carbine is nice for plinking, but you gotta be doing a lotta plinking to spend money on the carbine so you can save money on the ammo!  In states like PA that have restrictive hunting rules, plenty of rain, and often short range shooting, having a 357/44/45 lever gun with iron sights can have some appeal.  But aside from this the only practical pistol caliber carbine application I can think of is something like mechtech with a matching g20/29 for mag sharing.

 
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1/11/2016 10:18 AM
 

I got a MechTech CCU for my g20. It is a good piece of gear, well made and easy to set up and use. It is heavy (equals well made ?). One would think that, with the weight, it wouldn't recoil too much but it does snap back with heavier loads  (Double tap 200 gr). For me too use it comfortably I need to modify the stock a bit so it doesn't bite me in the face. I think once that is resolved it should be a good 100 yd carbine with the option of returning it to pistol form or add another pistol for a rifle/pistol combo. Time and some messing around will tell. 

 
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1/11/2016 10:29 AM
 
I was initially pretty excited about the concept of the MechTech. Getting my hands on one quenched my excitement. Heavy and awkward was my take. Way heavier than I wanted to carry for the capability provided, and I am not surprised that it bashes your check bone.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
 
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1/11/2016 9:18 PM
 
The Sig MPX has a 4.5" barreled pistol version coming out eventually. This kind of thing, SBR'd with one of their collapsable stocks or with a sig-brace, would be the only thing I'm really interested in under an AR or AK length. Something light, portable, shoulderable, with optics and 30 round magazines that I can reach out to 100 yards easily with.

I would like to see something like that in 10mm though, that'd just be baller.
 
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1/12/2016 1:33 PM
 
I hear you Scot. I got one with the idea of a short range rifle with a bit more capacity if I needed it. I keep running the Marlin 44 so I may part with the Mech Tech. Like you I just can't seem to justify the weight for the extra rounds over the Marlin for what I do with it.
 
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1/12/2016 6:38 PM
 
Evo8dude wrote:
Something light, portable, shoulderable, with optics and 30 round magazines that I can reach out to 100 yards easily with.

 

This is what keeps bringing me back to a 9-10" .300 SBR. The Sig and CZ 9mm are both really cool SBRd and I may end up with one but the math keeps = .300BO

 
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HomeHomeDiscussionsDiscussionsFirearms and Sk...Firearms and Sk...Pistol Caliber Carbines???Pistol Caliber Carbines???