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1/12/2016 6:50 PM
 
vaspence wrote:
Evo8dude wrote:
Something light, portable, shoulderable, with optics and 30 round magazines that I can reach out to 100 yards easily with.

This is what keeps bringing me back to a 9-10" .300 SBR. The Sig and CZ 9mm are both really cool SBRd and I may end up with one but the math keeps = .300BO



...and the good news is, you can push much further than that with a .300
 
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1/31/2016 7:12 PM
 
I'm thinking about getting the PSA glock lower in a pistol configuration with there 7" upper. I shoot 9mm glocks now (I carry a 26 everywhere) with a good red dot some back up sights and a light I think it would make a great travel gun plus I think it would make a good coyote/small game gun not to mention cheap and fun to shoot.
 
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1/31/2016 10:08 PM
 
Just some Cooper-ism info for what it's worth:

The Thumper was basically described as a short barrelled M1 Carbine in 44 Automag.

You can read what he had to say about it here: http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=n70k71t651diug4eflmf97hjg2&topic=177.0



The big bore scout rifle was dubbed the Lion Scout. Steyr produced one, at least briefly, in .376 Steyr.



As for the PCC, I keep trying to convince myself I need one, but I always realize that it does nothing that many other things do as well, with fewer drawbacks. The primary benefit of the PCC, as I see it, is the reduced muzzle blast. This makes them easier to suppress, and easier on the ears even when unsuppressed. A big benefit if it's being used indoors.
 
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2/2/2016 10:37 AM
 
I hope I'm not breaking any forum rules by linking to my blog, but I have a couple posts relevant to this thread. Rather than reposting them, here are links:

Thoughts on Pistol Caliber Carbines: http://survivalpreps.blogspot.com/2014/04/thoughts-on-pistol-caliber-carbines.html, wherein I discuss some pros and cons.

Lever Action Carbines for Defense: http://survivalpreps.blogspot.com/2015/12/lever-action-carbines-for-defense.html, in which I address why they can be valuable, especially for those in restrictive jurisdictions.

When it comes to semiauto PCCs for serious purposes, my current favorite is a Beretta CX-4 Storm that uses M-9/Beretta 92FS magazines. It has excellent ergos, has been very reliable, and headshot accurate out to 50 yards. (My favorite PCC is a TNW Sumoi that I Form 1ed into an SBR, but it's really a toy for me due to the weight.)

OTH, the more I shoot my Rossi 92 carbine in .357 the more fond of it I become. It's as light at the Storm but each shot packs a lot more punch.

Dave Markowitz
 
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2/5/2016 5:19 PM
 
I'd like a Sig MPX or something similar in 9mm. If someone "hypothetically" had a large number of rounds in 9mm in a quality JHP (Federal HST 147gr, etc,) a pistol carbine would be a good choice I think. With the brace and optics you should be capable of reaching out 100 yards vs 25 yards (pushing it?) with just a pistol. Unfortunately, they are as expensive as a mid to high grade AR which I would choose if I could only have one or the other. Still, they look awesome and maybe one day I'll get one.
 
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2/5/2016 9:50 PM
 

msilk00 wrote:

... vs 25 yards (pushing it?) with just a pistol...

I think 25 yards should really be your basis for pistol marksmanship with an iron sighted pistol. Put a red dot on it, and 100 yards is no problem at all. Modern semi automatic handguns are much more accurate than the sights and skill of most shooters (myself included) are capable of. 

 
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2/8/2016 12:19 PM
 

I think 25 yards should really be your basis for pistol marksmanship with an iron sighted pistol. Put a red dot on it, and 100 yards is no problem at all. Modern semi automatic handguns are much more accurate than the sights and skill of most shooters (myself included) are capable of. 

 

I'm not going to disagree with you. However, when someone says they think 25yds is pushing it with a pistol, that tells me they've done enough shooting to know where they stand -- and there are a lot of folks standing in that same place. What's worse is when someone thinks they've easily got 25 yards with a pistol and realistically are good to about 7. Conversely, shots that are child's play with a carbine can be challenging even for skilled pistol shooters. Nothing wrong with trying to get the edge with a carbine.

Personally, I think what's standing in the way of pistol caliber carbines being of any value is the fact that SBRs are so restricted. The ideal pistol caliber carbine weighs less and is more compact than a rifle caliber carbine or there's not much point. To get there in a pistol caliber, you're building an SBR. 


We are fortunate in this matter that your conduct will be your marker and, thus, your reputation. The conduct of others on this forum has been, and will continue to be, their marker, and thus, their reputation. In the west, a person invests in one's reputation carefully. - 112Papa
 
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2/10/2016 7:11 PM
 

I've tried to talk myself into many different PCC for many different reasons, and it never worked. as many have said there are are just so few that offer any tangible benefits over other guns. This is as close as I can come up with to a practical example and stretches the "carbine" part:

the modularity, weight, and "always with you" part are the reasons I would go this route, if you carry a CCW and just had the stock/brace/adaptor thingy rattling around in the car/man purse/backpack I think you get a little more of the best of both rather then the worst of both. Obviously you don't get any ballistic advantages, but if that is what you want that is what real carbines are for. I've only had the chance to shoot a stocked glock one time, the shortcoming I did not foresee was how poorly pistol sights work when held that close to your face. If I was serious about this I'd say an RDS would be in order, but even with factory sights the stock helped with hits even more then I would have guessed.

I'd looked at some of the cheaper PCCs (like the folding Keltecs) as toys/beaters/car/cache guns, but cheap ARs have really taken some of the appeal away. I also don't shoot in the kind of volume that lets me justify investing in a gun that is "cheaper" to shoot. The best PCC justification I've heard is for dedicated suppressor rigs, there is the opinion that at subsonic speeds the .300 is little better then a pointy .30 cal pistol bullet anyway but I haven't looked into it hard enough to accept or reject it.

the brace pictured above is not NFA *this week* for those that care, I wonder if a heat gun, a thick cutting board and a saw could get you most of the way there? 

 
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2/10/2016 8:27 PM
 
The USA1 Shot thing might be fun, if the cost was right and the law was not always in a state of flux.
if you take the NFA road the MP5 is very handy in 9mm, and 9mm is nearly cheaper than 22 and much more available.
with the advent of the "PDW" stock for the AR family one can assemble some handy size carbines
 
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2/11/2016 3:38 PM
 
I grew up with pistol caliber carbines around the house. The two I remember the most were the Ruger semi-auto 44 mag, and a Browning 44 mag lever action. I have had pistol caliber carbines off and on over the years, and currently am experimenting with a Rossi 16" lever action. I generally agree with the logic of using 30-30 in this platform, but here's what I like about my current setup:

Compact
Holds 9 rounds
Those fat 44 mag rounds are easier for me to handle than skinnier 38/357 rounds.
Straight wall pistol caliber rounds are easier for me to reload than bottle necked rifle rounds, on my Dillon 550.
Pistol caliber carbine is allowed in the action pits of my local shooting club, but not centerfire rifle.
Did I mention it holds 9 rounds?

My use case for this is whenever I want something more compact, lightweight and discreet than a Ruger Scout. (think cowboy PDW).

My only beef with the gun are how rough the action is and the blued steel isn't great in my rainy AO. Once I decide whether to keep it or not, I will invest in some action work and a refinish to something more moisture resistant. So far, though, I think I will keep it.
 
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2/29/2016 7:45 PM
 
I have a beautiful little straight stocked 16" Marlin .44 magnum. I never use it. While cool to fondle and generally play with, it really does not fill any roles for me that something else does not do better. I have a 20" .308 LW bolt gun, and a compact, lightweight AR that really cover almost all of my needs.

I have a good bit of time behind an MP-5 and always thought they were cool little guns. (actually they are not that little. The very cool thing is that with practice, they are actually tack driving machines. Add a suppressor and you have a rather quiet, and deadly tool. But sadly private ownership of one is just in the cards for me.

I really should stick the 16" Marlin on GB and put the $$ towards something else, like an optics upgrade or something.

The "practical/all around .308":

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Lightweight AR, which I find, with proper ammo can handle a wide range of tasks too:


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More and more I am considering just shooting .223, .308 and .300WM for all my outdoors needs, thus simplifying a few things. Even the "Uber cool" 16" Marlin 30-30 may need to go. It is another that gets fondled but rarely shot.
 
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3/3/2016 10:11 PM
 
Mackay-Sagebrush, excellent point about the 223, 308, and 300WM handling most outdoor needs! And for my situation I don't really have a need for the 308 that the 300WM doesn't fill better. Occam meets Clausewitz.

I guess the PCC just don't offer enough in my situation to justify another logistical headache.

An excellent discussion!


Talk is cheap...lets compare fur checks.
 
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4/19/2016 12:55 PM
 
Just to rekindle things here, I thought I'd mention that I picked up a new (second gen?) kel tec sub2k with g19 mag style grip. When they told me they had the sub2k I basically said, oh neat, I'd like to pick it up. But I definitely won't buy it. I mean there's no way I'll buy it unless it's the new gen, in 9mm, and it accepts 15 round mags - not just the 17 round mags, without anyone butchering the grip. I thought all those caveats would protect my moldy money. But 'lo and behold, that's exactly the model they had.

Initial feedback:

First, it's a lot of fun.

Second, it seems easier and cheaper to get 9mm lately than 22wmr!!! Crazy. I know these things are cyclical and tomorrow that could be completely different. But at least 9mm is centerfire and as such has the option to be handloaded and probably cycles more reliably.

Third, it's going to be a pain in the ass to put optics on it, due to the (very cool) folding mechanism. There's a company not too far away in Central PA down towards the MD border that makes replacement fore grips on them that can rotate and maintain zero. IDK whether I care or not. It's fun shooting iron sights, but like I mentioned elsewhere, I'm still very intrigued by the Primary Arms and Vortex 1-6x adjustable optics with the red dot highlight over etched reticle. Am leaning towards the ACSS style reticle that PA offers over the Vortex reticle. Will post if I decide to grab that component.

Fourth, it's almost small enough folded to easily transport in a tara. As is you can definitely do it. It sticks out of the back slot, and it's long enough that the main pocket has to be pretty empty because of the way its length exceeds the length of the back. Carries fairly easily in a 'Lindi, but I'm sure it could get old quickly in the back slot but maybe it would be fine. I guess it depends on individual builds/preferences, and the pack load. I'm sure someone could use a piece of cardboard or plastic to extra-pad against the pieces bumping against one's back.


Fifth and final: I really like the G19 mag compatibility and the price point (if you can find one). It's not a 223/300blk/308 or any of the other rifle cartridges that we all like. But it's a cheap and highly portable ground hog patrol that's fun enough to shoot, takes g19 mags, isn't ungodly loud, and doesn't have much recoil, so it can be kept handy in strategic locations and even some of the more squeamish family members seem to be comfortable shooting it. Not advocating it as a 1 gun (or even 3 gun) array to face the end of the world, but as a fun plinker and protector of gardens? Sure.
 
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4/20/2016 12:40 PM
 

Mackay-Sagebrush....those look like some fine rifle  / carbine choices.  I also like the aesthetics of the venues in your photos.  Totally agree on the MP-5....I spent a good bit of time with that little blaster, as well.  Both the SD and the K versions.  HK really got that one spot-on.  I'd feel sad if you got rid of your 30-30....I'll never get rid of mine, especially since it was my first deer rifle, even though I "upgraded" it by morphing it into a Lever Scout. 


Hill People Gear Coureurs des Bois (Brand Ambassador). Victoria faveat paratam. De Oppresso Liber.
 
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5/8/2016 10:44 PM
 
There are several comments on here related to the MP5 and 10mm. I am inclined to like the concept. I believe HK made MP10 subguns for a contract.

Does anyone know of a clone builder who does semi auto MP10 carbines? Is there a reliable source of quality mags for the MP10?

A folding stock, SBR, RDS, and white lighted MP10 seems like it would make a dandy back country contingency gun.
 
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5/9/2016 7:35 AM
 
One of the clone builders does, but I can't remember off the top of my head which one. I lost interest as soon as I saw the price tag, which was something like 3k+ if I remember right. Even if they could do a K version, at that price I just can't justify it. The other thing about the MP itself is weight. It is little, but chunky as in about the same weight as an AR. The K is better, and probably enough smaller and lighter that I would consider one, but not for that kind of money. I have been doing some more thinking on this, and something like the MCX in 300blk SBRed is probably a better way to go. Run the big subsonics and you might have a very interesting heavy hitter, without range, and then go to sonics to get range back. My understanding is that the caliber also suppresses very well. I bet you could put something like that together with optics and a can for less than just the custom 10mm MP5, and not be a lot, if any bigger.

I very narrowly bought a Zenith MKE K model a few months back, but just couldn't figure out what other than I want for coolness factor it did for me in that caliber. If some hits the market with something in 45 or 10mm I might rethink, but for back country the 9mm just doesn't make sense for me in a long gun or even a sub long gun. I have talked to one manufacture who is small enough to listen and has enough smarts and experience to see possibilities to make something happen, we will see.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
 
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5/9/2016 9:24 AM
 
Back in the bad old days, I spent a bunch of time behind a MP5SFA2 and MP5/40. My agency ran both of those and I spent a couple hours with some guys who worked for another agency playing with their MP5/10's.

I think they best fit the role they were expressly designed for: close quarters against unarmored targets. They were quite accurate. Hits at 100 yards were no big deal. Of course with the 9mm you were getting maybe .380 ballistics at that range. The .40 wasn't much better. The 10mm was a step up at range. They were easy to shoot quickly under stress and having a big old bucket of bullets hanging off the gun was comforting.

The 9mm guns were boringly reliable. The .40 guns were temperamental. We had half a connex full of .40 S&W Blazer aluminum cased ammo that gave us excellent malfunction training in the .40 guns.

The 10mm guns were a step up, but only with the right ammo. The guns came with two locking pieces for different power levels of ammo and you had keep track and make sure you were using the right one.

They were light, handy and useful in confined spaces, particularly with a Surefire forend. They could still get in the way. We sourced some 15 round magazines and collapsible stocks for when things got REALLY tight. In some ways a slick 14" Remington 870 with a light and short stock was even more useful inside things like trailer homes and the like.

When 10" AR's became a thing, we dropped the MP-5's like a bad habit. The MP-5 is one of those guns that was a great solution at the time, but has been supplanted by modern developments. I have a soft spot for them, and the shooting community at large has a real fascination with them. Men of a certain age grew up seeing them on Miami Vice and watching the SAS blow their way into the Iranian Embassy while carrying them.

I don't know anybody who shoots people for a living that would take any MP-5 variant over a 10" AR platform. If I had to go back to kicking in doors, I think I'd prefer a 14" 12 gauge for things like the inside of apartments, trailer homes and the like, paired with a 16" AR for everything else.

They would be far down on the list for an "Outdoor Traveler" type of piece. I'm a big fan of the 10mm cartridge in handguns, but I don't know that I would want to tote an Mp-5/10 around if something else was available. They don't seem to tolerate a lack of maintenance well. The solutions I've seen for mounting an optic are kludgy. When it comes to parts and service, they are truly special snowflake guns.

I'd be more inclined to check out some of the short barrel, .300 guns based on the AR-15 platform. Not because they are perfect, but because they are more supportable. I've resisted going down that road so far. I have an aversion to all the paperwork and scrutiny of an NFA item, and I think this whole SIG brace thing is going to blow up in everyone's face eventually.
 
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5/9/2016 9:29 AM
 
Oh yeah, I forgot to add:

Steyr is now making the AUG in the US. I ran into some interesting characters on a deployment who enjoyed them and really thought they were a good idea. They were barely longer than an Mp-5, but had a full 16" of barrel. I could shoot them one handed quite well inside 50 meters.

For a long time they were a no go here in the US, as they were essentially un-supportable, but now that they are made here, they may be more viable. They are still a bit of a special snowflake, but my understanding is they are making them to accept STANAG mags now a days.

They are still as heavy as a rifle (7lbs or so) but as short as an MP-5. I wonder if they will start making them in .300.
 
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5/9/2016 1:23 PM
 
I ran an AUG for some time. It was a tight little package, and I liked it for what it was/is. The manual of arms was easy enough to figure out.

I never found a good solution for integrating wight lights. I had the AUG mag version, but would go with the NATO version next time. Do not let the weight scare you off. The balance of the AUG is ideal and it feels lighter than it is. It can be shot one handed, shoulder supported with ease.


I keep waiting to get my hands on the Desert Tech MDR in .308. I suspect it will do about everything a guy could want in a contemporary package.
 
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5/9/2016 7:15 PM
 
Longeye wrote:
I keep waiting to get my hands on the Desert Tech MDR in .308. I suspect it will do about everything a guy could want in a contemporary package.

 

I'd been drooling over those for a long time as well, when I finally handled one I was pretty underwhelmed by the weight/balance, didn't seem as good as the other bullpups on the market. It was possible it was more of a prop gun with something off about it (one guy I talked too thought it might have been something odd like a barrel blank that hadn't been drilled out) but I was more then happy to find an excuse to move on to cheaper lust objects. On paper it sure seems to offer a lot.

 
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