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3/2/2016 6:07 PM
 

Can anyone recommend a quality "Blue Gun" or demo/dummy gun?  The blue, red, orange, or plastic type that is the same form factor and weight as the live model? The ones I have seen feel very cheap and light.  

 I am hoping to start working in "street clothes and the blue gun into some of the MMA / BJJ / Muay Thai / combatives workouts.  I don't want to trash a good gun rolling around.

The G17 or G19 is what I am hoping to find. 

 Thanks!


Talk is cheap...lets compare fur checks.
 
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3/2/2016 6:31 PM
 
Hey man,

The one's from "Blueguns" are pretty good.

http://www.galls.com/blueguns-glock-19-23-32-training-gun?PMWTNO=000000000002300&PMSRCH=

They aren't flexible and rubber feeling the way some are. The funny thing is Glock has put them under contract, and doesn't want them sold to the public. So they are fine with selling you a real Glock 19, but not a resin replica.

It looks like Galls will sell you one though.

Working with a blue gun did me alot of good, and drove some gear changes for me once I started rolling with one, and working on in fight weapons access. I wouldn't train with a real gun. I trust myself, and I trusted the guys I trained with when I did that sort of thing on a regular basis, but you only have to mess up once.

Hope that helps.

David
 
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3/2/2016 10:42 PM
 
ASP sells a red gun.  I have a Glock 17.
 
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3/3/2016 7:07 AM
 
Wose, excellent points. The slim chance of an accident is what has me looking. Any epiphanies during the rolls and training?

TAK, how close is the ASP weight to a live gun? In the holster can you tell the difference?

I was talking to a good friend who is the lead combatives and restraint instructor for a large county corrections facility that sees a lot of "hands-on". He mentioned that the dummy guns have less "flex and give" than a live gun and that they have had multiple trigger finger breaks and dislocations during training. They have even went to tapping the trigger guard up some on the training and sims guns. Fascinating training point.

On a side note...I think this is an area that is HUGELY under-trained in the CCW arena! HUGELY!!!! I am looking forward to seeing what the training brings.

Talk is cheap...lets compare fur checks.
 
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3/3/2016 9:28 AM
 
strow wrote:


TAK, how close is the ASP weight to a live gun? In the holster can you tell the difference?

 15.3 oz.  So about 40% lighter than a real gun but I don't think it makes much difference.  Locks into and out of an ALS holster like a real Glock.

 
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3/3/2016 2:52 PM
 
You can get some airsofts that are made to replicate the weight of a glock, or you can get a yellow plastic training barrel to put in a real glock for realistic training without the possibility of error.
 
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3/3/2016 5:00 PM
 
strow wrote:

On a side note...I think this is an area that is HUGELY under-trained in the CCW arena! HUGELY!!!! I am looking forward to seeing what the training brings.

 

Agreed. Now that Scot and I are training JKD / Kali / Muay Thai again, the subject of what the integration looks like has come up often. I particularly wish I was getting more weak side lead edged and impact weapon drills in right now. 


We are fortunate in this matter that your conduct will be your marker and, thus, your reputation. The conduct of others on this forum has been, and will continue to be, their marker, and thus, their reputation. In the west, a person invests in one's reputation carefully. - 112Papa
 
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3/3/2016 10:19 PM
 
Evan, I am looking forward to hearing how the JKD / Kali / Muay Thai training is going!

Talk is cheap...lets compare fur checks.
 
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3/4/2016 11:05 AM
 
strow wrote:
Wose, excellent points. The slim chance of an accident is what has me looking. Any epiphanies during the rolls and training?

TAK, how close is the ASP weight to a live gun? In the holster can you tell the difference?

I was talking to a good friend who is the lead combatives and restraint instructor for a large county corrections facility that sees a lot of "hands-on". He mentioned that the dummy guns have less "flex and give" than a live gun and that they have had multiple trigger finger breaks and dislocations during training. They have even went to tapping the trigger guard up some on the training and sims guns. Fascinating training point.

On a side note...I think this is an area that is HUGELY under-trained in the CCW arena! HUGELY!!!! I am looking forward to seeing what the training brings.

 

Hey, I don't know that I have any huge epiphanies, other than that after years of my rich uncle and then my city agency training me in firearms and "defensive tactics" in piecemeal fashion seeing it all integrated together was one of those "where have you been all my life moments."

I hung up the super-suit over ten years ago and really haven't trained all that heavily in about 5 years. The things I do try to sustain are the integrated things, working tools in the clinch and on the ground, and appropriately introducing tools into the fight.

I assume you are familiar with Craig "Southnarc" Douglas of www.shivworks.com? If not he's the go to guy for this sort of stuff. I've never trained with him live, but his videos are awesome, as well as the content he's put up at www.totalprotectioninteractive.com. The last time he rolled through town, I was getting married that weekend, so it was a no go, but I'd like to take his ECQC class one day.

Regarding breaking fingers, I reflexively index my finger on the frame of the pistol when I pick it up, and that's a great way to get your finger broken when grappling over the gun. I had to make a conscious choice to wrap all my fingers around the grip below the trigger guard, if that makes sense.

Regards,

David

 
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3/4/2016 2:28 PM
 
Wose,

I will give the grip you mention a try when I plug the dummy gun into the training.

I am actually scheduled to take Craig's ECQC class for a second time in ABQ this fall. I took it the first time in PHX. Walking away from the first ECQC class I had a "WTF just happened" look on my face. It was a real eye opener!!! And I have a pretty solid background in combatives and shooting. The ECQC course is the only class I have ever taken that I would take a second time or annually if I could. It was that good.

Many of the take-aways from Craig's class are what is driving my training and practice changes. It's time to dust off the Spyderco training blade, buy a dummy gun, and get to the gym for an hour or two per week in street clothes.

On a side note Craig is truly one of the most articulate, precise, and pedagogically sound instructors I have ever met...and I work in education. He is good. Funny as hell too.


Talk is cheap...lets compare fur checks.
 
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3/4/2016 6:32 PM
 
I took EWO last year and it was one of the best classes I have ever taken. Craig is a great mentor and instructor. I highly recommend any of his courses.
 
New Post
3/4/2016 9:58 PM
 
When I was training in Systema regularly, and even Aikido before that we tried to regularly integrate at least some edged weapons training into our classes. Occasionally also with blue guns, and even air-soft. Air-soft was a major eye opener for me, it was all a big joke until you were one on one with someone knowing the goal was to get into a physical conflict and they were going to try to pop you. "Only air-soft" yes, but a major shift in perspective happened. I'll also echo what's been said about fingers ending up in bad places when training with blue guns. It's a good reminder of where to keep yours, but also good to remember if you ever did end up in a real situation and had to go hands on with someone pointing a gun in your direction.

Systema was basically always in plain clothes so you learned quickly what clothes you could move in and what you couldn't. Anytime I buy pants I always do a squat test, if I can't do a full squat in them they're a no go.

Cross training is always a good idea, I'd highly recommend anyone with an interest in martial arts to attend a Systema seminar.

"Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children."
 
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3/7/2016 11:51 AM
 
Hey Strow,

That finger thing is a bit of a puzzler. Through training and practice, I've developed a firm habit of reflexively indexing my finger on the frame well away from the trigger. I had to laugh at myself the other day. I was holding a cordless drill, standing there contemplating a piece of work, and realized I had my finger firmly indexed away from the drill trigger. It's a great habit to have, right up until somebody tries to twist a gun out of your hand and your finger breaks. So I would just keep my finger indexed until I got into some kind of grappling situation, then try to remember to move it.

Sounds like you've got the "gold standard" when it comes to this stuff. I agree very much with what you had to say about Craig D. I used to spend quite a bit of time doing combatives, shooting and etc. Now a days, I don't. For one thing, after my job, trying to turn our 6 acres into a homestead, raising a toddler and tending my marriage, I don't have the free time I used to. For another, when I do have free time, these days, I'd rather work on my woodsmanship and get "out there."

So that leaves me with the question of "what's the minimum level of skills I should maintain when it comes to combatives/shooting/self defense/etc?" I think Craig's "core curriculum" is a really solid base for that, and if I can keep those skills up, I'm doing a good job of preparing in case the ugly side of the world insists on injecting itself into my boring little life.
 
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3/7/2016 5:32 PM
 
Wose,

It sounds like you have earned your respite! I sure understand what you mean. "Age and treachery will outdo youth and vigor every time."

The subject or Skill Maintenance and Physical Readiness are subjects I have spent a mess or time studying and researching. Hence this thread. A really fascinating subject with a pasture full of sacred cows. I might put some thought into it and possibly start a new thread and see what others think.

I found an ASP Glock 17 demo gun on sale online and will see how the rolling shakes out. I may give CZ Fan's idea of a pair of Airsoft pistols a try as things progress.

Steamboatsystema, don't even get me started on what passes for male attire (or masculinity) these days!



Talk is cheap...lets compare fur checks.
 
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3/8/2016 8:17 PM
 
strow wrote:

The subject or Skill Maintenance and Physical Readiness are subjects I have spent a mess or time studying and researching. Hence this thread. A really fascinating subject with a pasture full of sacred cows. I might put some thought into it and possibly start a new thread and see what others think.

I found an ASP Glock 17 demo gun on sale online and will see how the rolling shakes out. I may give CZ Fan's idea of a pair of Airsoft pistols a try as things progress.



 

Yeah you need to be careful with that. Many of the other fora related to that type of thing have grown somewhat tedious for me, and I'm sure you'd get plenty of answers about how if you aren't  rolling, banging, shooting and constantly acquiring new guns and gear with every spare moment, dollar and synapse at your disposal, you are just a sheeple who will get "killed on the street" the next time you go to pick up a library book. 

This might be a good place to try air that one out. There's not only an intelligent conversation about Islam, but also a discussion about bear pistols that I didn't walk away from after the first couple of posts, so I'm impressed.

I've trained with airsoft too. They hurt, and you can shoot your eye out, but you probably already knew that. When rolling, you can leave them charged with gas, but no projectiles. It's a little artificial because the ones we used were easier to push out of battery than a real G19, but I still found it useful.

 
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