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9/24/2018 6:27 PM

Watch carefully for my preferred bear evasion drill. I'm the guy in the polo. Whomever I'm hiking with is the guy with the ball. The guy in blue is the bear. It is hard to get the people you hike with to help you practice this technique.

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9/25/2018 10:05 AM
If anyone might have access to a grizzly that's mounted on all fours, I'd be curious to know what the rough dimensions are of the following:
a. the head circumference
b. the distance between the eyes
c. the distance between the ears
d. the shoulder height & width
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9/25/2018 12:45 PM

I set up a small drill that I tested for this purpose. A released basketball would roll downhill toward me and I would shoot as it approached. On rough gorund I felt that it might approximate the head of a bear charging toward the shooter, moving in all planes and directions.  Hitting it was not easy and I was grateful that being mauled by a basketball is non-fatal. I got a lot of mileage out of one basketball (cheap at Goodwill) by not hitting it and patching it when I infrequently did. Humbling!

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10/21/2018 8:17 AM
There's nothing wrong with Critical Duty for a woods round...it may not be the best.

I carry G20 loaded with Critical Duty in my truck when traveling, especially in the urban jungle of DFW area. Friends and I had an opportunity to perform barrier testing on a variety of vehicles with variety of 9mm and 10mm rounds, hollow point and hard cast.

Critical Duty was the only hollow point bullet that would consistently penetrate the reinforced areas of car doors and body along with the hard cast bullets. Not Silvertip, not Gold Dot, not Critical Defense...

Because of this testing and our confidence in the bullet, I've carried Critical Duty in the woods in black bear territory. I wouldn't do so in Grizz country. If I'm camping in backwoods, I'll load up with Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman.

Not really fair to armchair quarterback, but I reckon his best shot for CNS was the first shot he took (but he purposely chose to aim for body).

I've always heard that if you shoot an attacking bear in the vitals (non CNS), you've got to survive long enough for the bear to realize he's dead...

Here's a plug for smaller caliber vs Grizz (scroll down for the story): https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

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10/24/2018 8:41 PM

I own a G20, but a Glock 40 in 10mm with the underworld extreme penetrators seems like a mini-carbine to me. It’s on my short list. 

Will this fit in any of the kit bags? Any one tried yet? (It’s long) 

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10/27/2018 10:58 AM

Long time lurker since I usually don't know enough to comment. I have a G40 that fits in both my Recon and Heavy Recon kit bags with a crimson trace lightguard on it. The Recon is part of a running setup with the runner's harness and a tara, while the heavy recon lives on its own. Point being, at least for me the G40 actually carries fine while trail running in addition to having a reasonable draw stroke.

Only other thing that might be interesting is that I currently run the 220 grain hardcast from Underwood. My chrono says that load actually meets the velocity printed on the box/online, and the velocity spread is small. That's with stock barrel and spring, and without any indication of a weak spring or excessive leading in the barrel I see no reason to change anything.

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11/19/2018 6:38 PM
Just wondering is the Xtreme Penetrator bullets change the conversation a bit. I am not into gimmicks, but this bullet seems like the real deal to me. I have tested it in .45 ACP and get really good penetration in clay and water jugs. I know it is not very scientific, but that's all I currently have.

It seems that you can get enough penetration with a 10mm or a .45 to do the job. This allows folks to carry smaller handguns with more onboard capacity and less recoil than the typical field style revolvers. I am not knocking revolvers or other calibers, but thinking out loud. I still love my 69 and my Toklat.

I have been currently shooting a Glock 30 with Underwood 200 grain penetrators and am very impressed with accuracy, penetration, and controllability. It shoots much softer than a 29 I owned a while back and penetrates better than the 10mm loads that were available back then. I liked the 29, but being left handed the recoil from the hotter loads caused my trigger finger to activate the slide stop. I have not had this problem with the 30 and the Underwood. I have put the 30 into my rotation and find myself carrying it quite often. I like it when I travel through the Western states as it works dual duty for CCW and while out in the woods.

The one thing I know for sure it that there is no perfect solution. I think the best option is to get something you can shoot well, practice, and be smart in the field.

Credo Quia Absurdum!
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2/16/2019 1:55 PM
Has anyone read this article? I just found it and was pleased that the author had researched it so well. It breaks down, by caliber, the known instances where a handgun was used in a bear defense situation. https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5fjFuvHkr

ECVmat - I believe the Xtreme penetrators do change the conversation a little bit. They are not as heavy as hard cast but are much harder and create a greater wound channel. As far as penetration goes, they will not penetrate as much as a hard cast but beyond a certain point that doesn’t matter. In my 9mm I usually carry the XPs as the first three in my magazine then hard cast for the rest.
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3/30/2019 8:55 AM

I have combed through that article multiple times. It's a good read. I think the take away point from it is;

A: the firearm you have is better than the one you don't

B: shot placement is key, as you may only be able to get a few rounds on target depending on your skill level, draw quickness & carry method, accuracy, and ability to place followup shots. 

I'm currently carrying a Glock 20SF as my new woods gun with Underwood Extreme Penetrator and have full confidence in the round both for penetration and enough ft lbs. of muzzle energy to  make anything I encounter during my travels drop, run away, or at least have second thoughts as they are chomping on me (grizzlies). If bear spray fails and a bunch of 10mm being slung it's way aren't stopping the threat then it's just my time to go I guess. IMO the G20 and the G40 offer a great platform that provides decent firepower in a manageable size and weight while backpacking, and also allows you to carry more rounds than a wheel gun. Need to get a picture of the inside of my bag setup for carry. Have a velcro panel from MilSpec Monkey that works great as a little holster for the G20 with the weapon light and doesn't hang up the draw. 



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4/19/2019 11:10 PM
Guys, I will start by saying that I have no experience with bears to speak of, so what I have to say is litttle more than the result of my own th8nking about bear encounters. That said, it seems to me that bear defense occurs at close range, often with a very fast approaching target, and the general consensus is that two to three shots will be the maximum one can get off before contact. Little thought seems to be given to what happens AFTER contact. I do not know if there is a good reason for this, or if the idea is just unpleasant and therefore avoided altogether. In my own consideration of the topic, it occurs to me that I will have limited opportunity to engage the animal, with a weapon of less than prodigious ability, and may end up in a wrestling match with an opponent much heavier and stronger than I am, who also has claws and teeth. It occurs to me that once the situation devolves to this point, I will wish to keep fighting if possible. Ever push an auto pistol into something and try to fire it? Try it sometime. My choice, for this reason, is a revolver, specifically a .357 or larger. I like the Redhawk in .44 with a 5.5 inch barrel. No mag to dump in a tussle, no slide to be pushed out of battery at contact distance, and if you can pull the trigger, it will fire. Yeah, it’s heavy. Yeah, it takes a lot of practice to be effective with it. And yeah, knowing it will work as long as I can, and packs decent punch to boot, is not a negative to me. Of course an 870 with hard cast slugs is also good, but not as easy to have onyou at all times.
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6/14/2019 3:35 PM
First post but long time lurker.

Has anyone tested or had any experience with some of the "tumble on impact" projectiles from Fort Scott Munitions? The LGS has them in stock and says they are legit for bear defense. Of course, I'm skeptical. I would worry the tumble would not be in a straight line and it would yaw out of the intended target. Thoughts?
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10/21/2019 8:53 AM
The test Scot is talking about that we posted on another forum years ago I believe 41magfan posted up results for but very few others did. I just looked to see if I could find the data on my computer and failed. It wasn't necessarily super realistic, but it was a baseline. I looked at bear attacks and saw that for the most part the bear was VERY close by the time shots were gotten off. So the test was 7 yards, 2 rounds, shot timer, post your times and group size (I think I assumed that the group was centered), grain weight and fps. Ironically, my "light" load of 250 grain doing 1325 ended up being the heaviest load that times and group size were posted for. All of the guys championing heavier loads never posted data. As one might imagine, lighter loads had much better times and accuracy. I haven't carried the load mentioned above for years now. Scot subsequently ran an IDPA match with his .41 S&W revolver to sanity check performance with it and never carried a revolver again for wild animal defense. I've still got one of the Taurus titanium .41s because I like the idea of it and mine happens to work and be surprisingly shootable but the last time I shot it was when I decided that a S&W M&P in .40 was the way to go.

We are fortunate in this matter that your conduct will be your marker and, thus, your reputation. The conduct of others on this forum has been, and will continue to be, their marker, and thus, their reputation. In the west, a person invests in one's reputation carefully. - 112Papa
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10/21/2019 12:25 PM
I've always felt that a static target drill is really nothing more than ballistic self-gratification regardless of any time constraints and I've FINALLY got a target system on my range that allows for something resembling realism. Unfortunately, the target only runs about 25 feet and while that does in fact replicate many real-world encounters, I wish I could make it about twice that distance.

Anyhow, the realistic speed of this advancing target will test your skills at presenting the gun and if you bobble any part of the draw you will fail in even getting the gun out .... much less get any meaningful rounds on target. As with ALL square range work, there is the element of the known vs the unexpected, so even performance that one might think is acceptable must be viewed with a critical eye. The next step is to construct a dimensionally correct head/shoulders (bear) target and contrive some realistic foliage props that will partially obscure the target as it's advancing.


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10/21/2019 1:17 PM
I apologize if this has been posted before:


BLUF: engage early, often and repeatedly with whatever you have.
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10/21/2019 3:53 PM
El Mac wrote:
I apologize if this has been posted before:


BLUF: engage early, often and repeatedly with whatever you have.

Along those lines, here's a recent one with a G43:


I heard a comment to the effect that ANYTHING shot in the face well enough and often enough (with pretty much anything) will quickly leave you alone.
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10/24/2019 10:20 AM
A static square range drill is not representative, nor do we think it is/was. However, the goal was to provide a baseline for discussion, and was devised so that all you needed was a static range and a shot timer or even stop watch. In the thread in question people were spouting off about 454, 460, 480, 500, etc... with 300+gr bullets, and may of the pictures were of either 6" guns or snubbies in large calibers. The point was for folks to actually shoot those hand cannons and report back. Unsurprisingly, none of them did as Evan said.

At the time I was shooting a lot of revolver and a lot of idpa/ipsc matches. I was pretty confident with a revolver, but that was all static drills so I decided to run the match. I found I could hit pretty quickly with my first shot, but good aimed follow up shots and transitioning from target to target is where things really slowed down. I was running a mild 210gr load out of a 4" N-Frame with full weight barrel in 41 mag too, so it was not like I was shooting heavy recoil loads or out of a light gun. I love revolvers aesthetically, and have owned a lot of nice ones over the years, but that match kind of cured me of the idea of using one for bear defense or defense in general.

Co-Owner Hill People Gear "If anything goes wrong it will be a fight to the end, if your training is good enough, survival is there; if not nature claims its foreit." - Dougal Haston
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10/24/2019 4:02 PM

I have the Snubby Kit - Original Pattern and can tell you that the Glock G29 w 10rnd mag and pinky extension fits fine in the holster area.

A 15rnd G20 mag fits vertically in the general area.

25+1 rounds of 10mmexplosivetipcaselessstandardlightarmorpiercingrounds ... I mean Underwood 10mm Auto 200 Grain Hard Cast Flat Nose.

All together it adds only 9.625X10^463 lbs to the kit bag lol

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10/30/2019 7:39 PM
I had a huge dilemma the other day... 6 shot 4 inch 629-2 aka the mountain revolver or a gen 4 G20 with 3-15 round mags... even though I already have another 3 inch s&w 44- I went revolver again... No grizzlies down in SWCO, so they say...but I couldn’t pass up the sweet deal on the old school gun. I will someday own a 10mm Glock, but I’ll probably go with the long one with the cutouts for a red dot.
I try and get out a couple times a year with some cheap rubber balls from wallmart. I throw them up a slight hill as far as I can and then draw and fire.... great way to waste time and an eye opening experience to say the least... if I’m ever attacked by a bear I have a 50/50 chance that f hitting it according to the ball... love bear gun talk.
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11/1/2019 11:27 AM
With frequent trips to the Alaska bush I decided to go the full house route with a 500 S&W 4.5". We are typically far enough into the bush where it would take a month to walk out under the best circumstances (good health and little muskeg to go around). While I realize this revolver is not for everyone with practice it can be manageable for the right person, and luckily I can go behind the house and shoot often. It is carried in a chest holster over my waders. My preferred hand load is a 440 gr hard cast flat nose gas check. Luckily I have never had to pull the trigger but it has been out of the holster more than once. Anyone ever drop their waders for the "morning constitution" then look up to see a brown bear on it's hind legs? Waders came up pretty quick and backed away calmly. Luckily the bruin was just trying to figure out what I was.

I used to carry a S&W 629 with 6.5" barrel while on those fishing excursions. In the lower 48 it is a G20 and have had no reliability issues with it but for a bad run of brass with soft case heads. If hunting I tend to leave the 500 behind as a medium caliber rifle obviously has more energy than the revolver.

Just my philosophy and opinion.
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5/11/2020 8:26 PM
Hey all, I'm know I'm late to the party on this one, and while I've never had to shoot a bear with a lethal round, I've been around them quite a bit as a former "bear guard" here in Ak. Going out with teams of scientists researching potential impacts from a natural gas pipeline running alongside the trans alaskan pipeline. My sole job was to provide protection from wildlife encounters. I've had to pop a few with a rubber slug, but as I said, nothing lethal. The guy I worked for, a master guide up here, would not let any of his bear guards carry any handgun other than a wheelgun, saying that up close and personal, as may be well possible, pushing a slide out of battery is a big no go. Even carrying revolvers was frowned upon, and he required we all carry pump action 12 guages as our primary weapon. Nothing in the chamber, but a tube full of slugs, with rubber slugs available in a receiver saddle carrie, if you had time to load one, just had to rack the slide if you didn't, and the provided brenneke black magic magnums were ready to go.

The key thing with a bear is that making them leak isn't going to kill them quick in many cases. They have a very slow heart rate. Even hit in the heart, a bear can still functionally tear you up for a couple minutes. Your best bet in a DLP shooting is to break bones. Break that critter down, then finish it off. Big, heavy, slow rounds worked best for that. All that being said, I don't bear guard anymore, as my current job pays alot better, but I still bowhunt and fish alot up here. Mostly I will carry a .454 casull, with occasionally having a 18" barreled mossberg 500 in a back scabbard on me, if I'm not carrying a pack. I'm still a fan of hard cast, heavy, big meplat, slow moving rounds for bear protection.
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